Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

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Smaragd
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Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Smaragd »

Some of the names in the topic are often used synonymously, as for example in the recent discussion on Mediumism and the Critique where we used various terms for approximately the same thing. I would like to invite discussion on the meaning of these names in order to find clarity on what unites them and what could possibly differentiate them from each others.

I will start by making mostly my own non-definitive interpretations based on my intuition rather than on any vastly studied base of knowledge. In other words, my suggestions should be subjected to criticism. Feel free to add names of certain groups of entities or pseudo-entities (as in without true individuality) that you think is worth mentioning in order to introduce vital distinctions.

Demons
A general term for "empty" beings who need to vampirize others in order to fulfill some limited aim*. Could be thought as circles repeating some specific function or ”hunger”. Still, they are neutral and can be tied to relevant functions of the whole: the natural hunger we feel is a demon informing us of there being a hunger which hopefully tells us relevant information of a need to eat. The demon can become detached from the whole and inform of hunger when no food is needed, and thus we recognize it in more negative light as traditionally thought of demons.

Hungry Ghosts
Same as demons, but the vampirizing function is emphasised by such a name. Sometimes the term is used of particularly detached demons; say a medium has meddled with the shells of the dead and halted their journey down on the ramp of disintegration. Thus the "ghost" is detained from integrating and doomed to roam the vibrant living Earth, blindly vampirizing the living.

Ancestral Spirits
Here we might have a closer affinity to the demonic beings, meaning we have personal ties to them through our ancestry. It could be seen a less general term, yet still quite a vast one. Easier to attach neutral or even positive meanings, but such ease mostly tells of our limited understanding of demons. It is questionable if this group of entites can be limited to the demonic, for we could think of an extremely positive guidance given to us for example a highly spiritual grandparent who are already passed away. Their positive influences can still work as a demon, as in posing a dead virtue rather than living guidance but it needed not be limited so.

Elementals
Material entities. Bodies of different densities of matter from Fire to Earth. Body as a vessel comes back to the circular nature of demons lacking the Logoic/Fohatic diameter of their own which ties spirit and matter in a moment of time. Despite spirit and matter are ultimately one, they are not so in the differentiated state of the manifested world, and need to be guided there by human effort. 'Elemental', like ’demon’, is a very broad term which may be still sharing an area with ancestral spirits in the sense that the ancestral spirits of whole humanity on our planet have created the elements in their occult alchemical work with the root matter and the differentiations since created. As we can see, here the ancestral spirits do not limit to personal close ancestry but portray ancestry in much more general sense. Ancestry relating to such things as the five senses and the instrumental differentiation of matter from the prima materia. But elementals are perhaps not the same as the ancestry who created them, rather elementals are the base substance forming the material shells, which we call demons. I remember reading from a book of female demons in Hindu traditions, and how their names meant something like jar or a vase. With such a thought we could think of all material existence as a shell or a jar which can be filled with life force and spirit (Will).

A quote from the Mediumism thread which can be also helpful when thinking of elementals:
Aperiemus wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:22 am there is a difference between an entity with a relatively strong agency (will), and an elemental, that may interact with the physical (like by blowing up lightbulbs, talking through radio), but onto whom I project my feelings, giving it a pseudo-personality.

(Skandhas)
An additional group which according to Encyclopedia Britannica means: ”skandha, (Sanskrit: “aggregates”) Pāli Khandha, according to Buddhist thought, the five elements that sum up the whole of an individual's mental and physical existence.”

From the Theosophical critique towards mediumism we learn that skandhas could be individually branded and thus relating to the karma of a specific immortal spirit. A curious doctrine to think about in terms of mortal temporality of material forms and eternal nature of energy/abstract base of matter (prima materia).

Searching for the aforementioned Hindu female demons, which I failed to find, I happened on a demon called Kabandha (literally ’headless torso’), which is curiously close to ’Khandha’. This demon seems to portray the elemental materiality separate from the spirit. Compare to the Rocicrucian and/or Templar Master portrayed by the Head, which could be here defined as the Spirit.
Kabandha1.jpg
Kabandha1.jpg (41.1 KiB) Viewed 4264 times
* Human beings in the material condition also need to eat other beings to keep operating, and the archetypal beings also need their ”brothers” in order to be whole. In the case of humans, our material constituents are infact made out of these demons and thus we operate through them our own vampiristic deeds. In the case of archetypal beings, their individuality bases so definitely on Oneness that we could say such entities transcend vampirism in its conditioned state. This is one possible perspective how the two classes of magic according to the beings we communicate thereon could be seen defined as theurgy and goetia.

To put all these different thing in to perspective, it should be helpful to think of different densities of matter, from the root abstraction - mulaprakriti - of the Mother Immaculate towards the differentiated states of the elements. These make the whole of material existence and thus spirits of goetia. Then we can point more clearly the details from such a whole and ask questions how it all relates to the world of spirit.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Aperiemus »

A good and a complex topic. I will attempt to approach it by letting thinking grow organically from the taxonomy, but it might be that I'm confusing things. I actually have very little knowledge of the intricacies of theosophical thought concerning entities, and would be glad if someone here would enlighten me.
Smaragd wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:30 pm Demons
A general term for "empty" beings who need to vampirize others in order to fulfill some limited aim*. Could be thought as circles repeating some specific function or ”hunger”. Still, they are neutral and can be tied to relevant functions of the whole: the natural hunger we feel is a demon informing us of there being a hunger which hopefully tells us relevant information of a need to eat. The demon can become detached from the whole and inform of hunger when no food is needed, and thus we recognize it in more negative light as traditionally thought of demons.
What about our need to be touched, caressed, hugged even when we are horrified and alone, which seems to be a trait not only in the domain of the human but also in the animal kingdom, at least when mammals are concerned? And when it comes to demons detaching from the whole, under what kind of circumstances do they manifest? I can think of beings appearing when one is fasting, but they don’t necessarily have to be of this sort, since there are also other forces at work, when concentrating on such spiritual effort.

There might also be something that could be said of eating disorders (?), but I don’t think I am qualified to speculate on such matters, since I have had the luxury of never having to deal with them. And even though one can discuss such things in esoteric manner, one should always first find a way to deal with them in whatever frame of reference that works best for oneself in the present, be that self-help, psychotherapy, or what not.
Smaragd wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:30 pm Hungry Ghosts
Same as demons, but the vampirizing function is emphasised by such a name. Sometimes the term is used of particularly detached demons; say a medium has meddled with the shells of the dead and halted their journey down on the ramp of disintegration. Thus the "ghost" is detained from integrating and doomed to roam the vibrant living Earth, blindly vampirizing the living.
Drawing from the mediumism thread - so do I understand correctly that a hungry ghost would be someone who cannot ”leave”, and its vampirizing function is characterized by its repeating things compulsively over and over again? If that is the case, then would it be helpful to try to understand hungry ghost analogously as someone who is unaware of the mechanics behind the repetition? Animals and people have many reasons why they would keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
Smaragd wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:30 pm Ancestral Spirits
Here we might have a closer affinity to the demonic beings, meaning we have personal ties to them through our ancestry. It could be seen a less general term, yet still quite a vast one. Easier to attach neutral or even positive meanings, but such ease mostly tells of our limited understanding of demons. It is questionable if this group of entites can be limited to the demonic, for we could think of an extremely positive guidance given to us for example a highly spiritual grandparent who are already passed away. Their positive influences can still work as a demon, as in posing a dead virtue rather than living guidance but it needed not be limited so.
There is something magical in our relationships to our parents, our grandparents, our ancestors. Even people who aren’t into spiritual side of life can be mesmerized by family history - maybe it is born out of reaction, since in modern times the link to our ancestors isn’t so stressed as it was in the past. However if I do not consider time in rigorously linear manner, then that would mean that I’m already ancestor to someone (unless I adopt an antinatalist position and keep true to it). A crude simplification, I know, but maybe my point is that time glimpsed through the lens of eternity makes cause and effect and the idea of a generational succession seem really complicated to say the least. Who begets who?
Smaragd wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:30 pm Elementals
Material entities. Bodies of different densities of matter from Fire to Earth. Body as a vessel comes back to the circular nature of demons lacking the Logoic/Fohatic diameter of their own which ties spirit and matter in a moment of time. Despite spirit and matter are ultimately one, they are not so in the differentiated state of the manifested world, and need to be guided there by human effort. 'Elemental', like ’demon’, is a very broad term which may be still sharing an area with ancestral spirits in the sense that the ancestral spirits of whole humanity on our planet have created the elements in their occult alchemical work with the root matter and the differentiations since created. As we can see, here the ancestral spirits do not limit to personal close ancestry but portray ancestry in much more general sense. Ancestry relating to such things as the five senses and the instrumental differentiation of matter from the prima materia. But elementals are perhaps not the same as the ancestry who created them, rather elementals are the base substance forming the material shells, which we call demons. I remember reading from a book of female demons in Hindu traditions, and how their names meant something like jar or a vase. With such a thought we could think of all material existence as a shell or a jar which can be filled with life force and spirit (Will).
Example: I had an experience after visiting the body of a dead relative who had passed away in his sleep a few hours before. I had previously, somewhat intuitively decided to remind myself of what was said in one of the appendices in Fosforos concerning states after death. I was puzzled by what was said about ghosts being able to alter electromagnetic fields. After visiting the body, when I was at another relatives place, there was a curious incident. They had just installed a new fridge, and when I opened it, the LED inside it flickered and fizzed out. I remember having a weird mixture of feelings while thinking to myself ”ahh, so that’s what the part about electromagnetic fields meant”. Now then, the question remains: whether or not the incident was actually a function of the aforementioned dead relative, or whether that was some kind of elemental, that was drawn to my mental state, I don’t know. Now that I think about it, in this particular instance the more pressing issue is that what would I do with that knowledge. Do I need it for the sake of peace of mind (”I just have to know what it was!”) and if so, why do I think that knowing what it was would bring said peace. Or can an undertanding about entities help me, to quote master of Nazareth, to "Love God above all things and your neighbour as yourself"?

[EDIT: typo]
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Nefastos »

Extremely interesting and important topic – and vast!

In order not to confuse it too much, I take one stance that seems to be repeating (sic) here, and it is repetition.

The two triangles of the Hieroglyphic Key: the upper, spirit, is free, since it is above form. The lower, matter, is set and tied, since it is form. The lower is the wheel of Samsara rolling forever around its middle point, which is the higher.

From the viewpoint of the spirit, there is nihil nove sub sole, everything happening in the lower triad is forever the same. Things seem to us, bound beings and pashus, as new, because of the light of the middle point that trickle to that turning of the wheel. But since we mostly choose according to our bound temperament (karma) and not according to actual need of the moment, the thing we consider life (spiritual vitality) becomes death (spiritual inertia) instead, and because of that, the bodily death leads to stages of repetition. They are there because they have already been there, but our microcosmos body has helped to veil that fact from ourselves. When the microcosmos body rots or is incinerated, we are left alone with our repetitions. Enter demonic vicious circle, enter prêta (hungry ghost), enter vampire that feeds from other people's inner and outer vitality (which are pretty much the same in prâna).

Buddhist view emphasizes this vicious circle of the life that repeats ad nauseam. Hindu view (which I personally prefer) often emphasizes the trickle of light coming from the higher triad to the lower, even though bound state. Christian world view doesn't understand the whole picture at all, since it has fallen to the Western hubris of YOLO life, which is = profanity, lack of spirit and Meaning.

There is a very important difference between these two, the Oriental idea of cycles of being, and the Occidental view of straight line. That straight line thinking is dangerous to the extreme. (Of course, there are dangers in the cyclic mindset as well, but since they are practically nonexistent in our culture when compared to the problems of the Olympic thought, I think we can leave them to little consideration for now.)

If this is so, what are the different repetitions of these entities, which are partly pseudoentities?

"Elementals":
These beings are in the arch of emanation, i.e. they are passing from the spirit to the matter, and so, they must (and they can only) follow their "base" instincts. They know of nothing more, and so they are innocent, but when contacted, easily become "evil" to us, because they are something that we have already been and advanced onwards from. BUT when this nature of theirs is understood, we can work them without a problem, just like we can visit a kindergarten when we know it's a kindergarten and not an academy of equals. When a toddler tells you that he is actually Napoleon, you can smile and hug him, since you know that he neither is nore means anything bad with that. But a person dealing with elemental spirits and thinking that one can trust to what these beings tell is going to be in deep trouble soon. In that they come close and easily get confused with –

"Demons":
This name can mean so many things. But mostly it is an upward (remanation-going) mind mixed up and greatly entangled with downward (emanation-going) spirits. Often a deceased (or unconsciously astral-walking) ex-human being, who has been so saturated with one's erring mind, that one is practically in a constant state of psychosis. This permanent insanity is or becomes solipsistic evil. This kind of being can work in any level one has become bound to: aetheric, red astral, or even black manasic astral. The latter one is a black magician per se, an intelligent and powerful, but twisted and pervert ex-human being, who thinks he or she alone is able to determine what is good – all the other people are idiots, animals, slaves, puppets to be used. Most demons are not this conscious though, but merely act according to their kâmic mechanisms. All this is repetition of one's former mistakes, the fetters growing stronger and stronger with every downward spiralling, leading eventually to avici or the hell of seeming annihilation. (Which isn't actually annihilation of the monadic mind, just a slow and painful erasure of its deep karmic problems.)

"Hungry ghosts":

Where powerful human beings fall to the state of a black magician, the petty human beings fall to the state of hungry ghosts. When (and to the point that) our living mind has been selfish, power-hungry, pleasure-hungry, addicted in ways that do not want to share, never give when it is possible to keep, to hoard money and merit in expense of others – that mind trained to selfish yearning will suffer greatly when its possibilities of accumulation are taken away in death. It has indentified itself with its small lusts, and cannot look away from those needs in earthly life. A vampire is a spirit (whether the one of living or dead) who joins this intense lower thirst to one's strong black astral (= kâma manas tied to collective higher manas, but taking the first one as its point of self-identification).

"Ancestral spirits":

Usually only echoes in the memory matrix of Anima Mundi, even when they become galvanized to the semblance of life and consciousness of the karcist or medium. They can feel extremely alive, because the very wish and synergy that reached for them is an astral umbilical cord of sorts, and lets one to enjoy an intense form of projection. (For example: I have a temperamental issue of X. Because of this X I end up reaching for the ancestral spirit Y, who shares this particular trait. Because we both are X, I project astral vitality to Y, whose dormant shell is seemingly vivified and its X vibrates once again. Since I have focused strongly on this X of mine, it is exhilarated by the apparently new form of X from Y, and I will experience this as an intense feeling of personality of Y. Thus, the result is a conglomeration of personal projection and actual contact to the decased personality, which however wasn't conscious before I reached for it in my need.) Thus, once again, repetition, which is the paradoxical meaning of procreation in the first place. But this repetition should work in ascending spirals, which venerate the ancestors who deserve it, and focus onto one's offspring to give it the best we have ourselves been able to reach. If this becomes reversed, and we turn to revere our ancestors too much, the result is not only Samsara, but necromancy. Such a reversal of karmic flow is extremely harmful, and may result is very painful future experiences of atavism, like being born with maiming physical regressions. This is not a vengeance of some omnipotent God, but a simple yet cruel working of irritated vital forces. There are reasons why black magic, necromancy and mediumism have been mostly forbidden in the past cultures, and it isn't only because of their dangers to other people or because of the breaking of some irrational sociological taboo.

Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 amNow then, the question remains: whether or not the incident was actually a function of the aforementioned dead relative, or whether that was some kind of elemental, that was drawn to my mental state, I don’t know. Now that I think about it, in this particular instance the more pressing issue is that what would I do with that knowledge. Do I need it for the sake of peace of mind (”I just have to know what it was!”) and if so, why do I think that knowing what it was would bring said peace. Or can an undertanding about entities help me, to quote master of Nazareth, to "Love God above all things and your neighbour as yourself"?

One of the things that separates the higher metaphysical occultism from the easy new age witchcraft is that the first one acknowledges how phenomena are almost always many things at once. We can learn to say which things can be mostly ruled out, but it still leaves us with multiple aspectual answers. It is like a dream analysis: it is relatively rarely we can analyze a dream completely inside out and find one simple meaning behind it; more often the dream connects to many things at once. The same goes with parapsychological phenomena: they too are conglomerates of different energies from different minds, some encased in living crania and some well on their way to apparently (but only apparently!) body-independent aetheric and astral states. This is one more reason why magic is a lot like sexual or romantic union: it brings about results almost only when two different poles meet under certain circumstances, and is hard to reach purely via mechanical means.

Which brings us to the close of the point of repetition. Repetition is the dream of our modern science (all valid experience must be repeatable!) and problems of mechanized world. The more there are mechanisms of repetition, the less there is spirit. This does not mean that things should become chaotic and erratic, simply that they must remain living, hermeneutical, respectful towards a plethora of aspects. Profanity = mechanisms → prisonic Samsara, occultism = understanding → freedom of laya (Nirvana).
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Smaragd »

Nefastos brought some nice perspective to the whole with the Hieroglyphic Key. I wrote most of the following before I saw his post, but I didn't see too much overlapping points, mostly just complementary ones.
Smaragd wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 4:30 pm Thus the "ghost" is detained from integrating
As you probably noticed, it should read: ”detained from disintegraing”.
Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 am Drawing from the mediumism thread - so do I understand correctly that a hungry ghost would be someone who cannot ”leave”, and its vampirizing function is characterized by its repeating things compulsively over and over again? If that is the case, then would it be helpful to try to understand hungry ghost analogously as someone who is unaware of the mechanics behind the repetition? Animals and people have many reasons why they would keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 am What about our need to be touched, caressed, hugged even when we are horrified and alone, which seems to be a trait not only in the domain of the human but also in the animal kingdom, at least when mammals are concerned?
Yes, the hunger should be taken as general term synonymous to ’need’ which is blind in itself. Need and Will differ from each other by teleology. Should we say that when we eat according to our daily routine, we usually do it by our Will to keep our instruments sharp in order to excell in our work, and when we eat because we realize we are starving and in need of sustenance, we are operating from a reactionary basis and running in circles in things we are yet to learn to make a tool out of? In instrumental routine there is also a circle but it is used consciously, and thus the neutrality of a demon gains a positive meaning. A routine can also fall from conscious use and thus its circle sooner or later becomes demonic in a negative sense.
Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 am And when it comes to demons detaching from the whole, under what kind of circumstances do they manifest? I can think of beings appearing when one is fasting, but they don’t necessarily have to be of this sort, since there are also other forces at work, when concentrating on such spiritual effort.
I’m prone to think of demons teasing and reminding us of our ties to them, for example during fasting, can be a demon working for the inner master by holding us on some sort of trial. That is, if the aim of fasting is pure, for example serving a purpose of temporarily severing our ties to the demons of our routines in order to operate with some occult purposes and rituals without the emphases and clicks these demons usually give us during the daily circulation.

Continuing on food/hunger metaphors, when in army with obviously thight routine, I would get these immense feelings of hunger about 30 minutes before it was dining time. If I would be aiming to partake in a 12 hour ritual come Easter, I should perhaps gradually drop from my thightest routines during the lent and have the couple last days with more strict fast in order to avoid being clicked by the demon amidst of an intense ritual: *ding* "it's 3 o'clock time to prepare food".

But we should indeed move away from these food related metaphors and think more generally all the aspects of the mind and their demonic instruments. When preparing for rituals of greater challenge, fasting shouldn’t be centered on food, but on more generally to the demons we work with in our day-to-day life and thus give emphasis to our being, which could be seen kind of distortions in the most refined theurgy. Ofcourse we must question the need for such refinement, because it can be in itself a great demonic distortion if we have not casted the light of consciousness over it.
Aperiemus wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 9:53 am Now then, the question remains: whether or not the incident was actually a function of the aforementioned dead relative, or whether that was some kind of elemental, that was drawn to my mental state, I don’t know. Now that I think about it, in this particular instance the more pressing issue is that what would I do with that knowledge. Do I need it for the sake of peace of mind (”I just have to know what it was!”) and if so, why do I think that knowing what it was would bring said peace.

The disintegration of the dead is a fine example where we can observe all these different ”skins” being shed. Hence if the LED wasn’t simply defective already in its creation, then we could perhaps think of possibilities of the disintegration of the elemental portions of the individual filling the atmosphere of the apartment and the different portions working on their own levels, some disrupting the electro-magnetic fields of the space when its time to eat, time to use the electric toothbursh etc. From this we come to the very important point of this topic: all these groups can be seen overlapping with each others and thus differentiations found between them should bring clarity to how they connect to our phenomenal experiences and further our understanding and the difficulties thereon regarding occult operations be they of day-to-day challenges or those pertaining to ritual.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Aperiemus »

Nefastos wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:21 pm
Which brings us to the close of the point of repetition. Repetition is the dream of our modern science (all valid experience must be repeatable!) and problems of mechanized world. The more there are mechanisms of repetition, the less there is spirit. This does not mean that things should become chaotic and erratic, simply that they must remain living, hermeneutical, respectful towards a plethora of aspects. Profanity = mechanisms → prisonic Samsara, occultism = understanding → freedom of laya (Nirvana).
I'm not quite sure of the following idea, so I'd rather say that it is speculative: The way a repetition gone awry works, could possibly be expressed in the form of a feedback loop. A need is a function that has both input and output (the tail and the head of an ouroboros). A black magician could be understood as a loop where a certain threshold, that is there to pull things back to their homeostatic equilibrium, has been crossed. From a need emerges need of need, a continuously accelerating version of a perpetuum mobile that can only stop by crashing into a wall deep in the depths of inferno.

On a macrocosmic scale the attempt at satisfaction drives an entity or a part-entity to consume other entities, as mentioned before. And once consuming happens, it creates a void, no matter how small, that again needs to be satisfied - death begets life begets death... Maybe we can think of all the particular instances as modes of horror vacuii, ”there mustn’t be nothing, there at least has to be me!”.
Smaragd wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:49 pm all these groups can be seen overlapping with each others and thus differentiations found between them should bring clarity to how they connect to our phenomenal experiences and further our understanding and the difficulties thereon regarding occult operations be they of day-to-day challenges or those pertaining to ritual.
Well said. People (and somehow this tends to be a masculine trait) can fall in love with their taxonomies and systems for their own sake. I sure as hell have done that so many times that I don’t even remember all the iterations.
Smaragd wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:49 pm Hence if the LED wasn’t simply defective already in its creation
This reminded me of the desire for paranormal explanation (exemplified here by my original message), that can drive people nuts. It is a difficult tightrope to cross, to keep ones mind open for the possibilities of ”a mundane” explanation while at the same time staying true to spiritual convictions. These sorts of slips happen all the time.
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Nefastos »

Aperiemus wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 9:36 amThe way a repetition gone awry works, could possibly be expressed in the form of a feedback loop. A need is a function that has both input and output (the tail and the head of an ouroboros).

It is interesting to see how often the lowest (a certain mistake) and the highest (the perfection) correspond. Here too, Ourobos dragon that is all-inclusive universe and the avici of the demonically possessed mind show that same state of an entity turning solely to itself.

The neophyte or the adept on the path of ascension cannot but to see see how her spirals must always be upward, and what is reached for is therefore somewhat unknown. Perfect control is necessarily closed solipsism, and thus an imploding black hole avici. People who are very much in control of their own life usually become more and more narrow-minded, and eventually there seems to lurk something cruel in that pond of unmoving water. Even though it requires quite a lot of time for themselves to become aware of that.

For elementals (and to the point there is true elemental, childish freedom in ourselves) it is somewhat different. Their solipsism is beautiful, for it is innocent and not chosen in order to control things. But this is not the last stage, but the phase of prima materia, which eventually must be able to assume responsibility and therefore control. Yet hopefully there will always remain a spark of that elemental dance in all of us. There are many occasions when that dance of the will-o-wisps only seems downward, but factually becomes a soaring upward movement when realized with a correct mindset.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Istar »

In my worldview, everything is consciousness. Elementals, demons, hungry ghosts and ancestral spirits are consciousness. The division into good and bad spirits is artificial. I think that a person's own views on spirits have a considerable influence on the content of experiences. If the attitude toward spirits is negative, the encounters are more likely to be negative. Projection causes a person not to be able to relate neutrally to the thing they experience. Culturally, spirits are viewed negatively, and an atmosphere where intimidation is almost the only way to deal with things strengthens negative associations with spirits. In addition to the cultural atmosphere, a person's relationship with his own "lower" aspects affects how he relates to spirits that are considered negative. However, some spirits behave in a harmful manner, but in my own experience it is very rare.
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Zeraim »

This might be bit off-topic...

While reading this discussion, I started to wonder about the qualities we project into the “spirits” especially in connection with the earlier discussion about mediums. I would like to express two practical concerns, both connected tightly together.

The first concern is our attitudes and fears, the second is about the “internal” and “external” reality in general. This comment is bit similar to the view Istar already expressed.

In the discussion about mediums and also here, I seem to notice that we are aware that there might be something (consciousness, astral energies similar to the structure of the entity etc.) that we project to these entities be they spirits, ghosts, elementals or what ever. And at the same time we still give them mostly negative qualities like being vampiristic, misleading, evil etc. We label these things with warnings.

Many people in SoA are trying to look different traditions and their symbols/terminology, unite different ways and even try to see differently and more deeply concepts generally regarded as evil or opposing to everything holy, like Satan. Many of the members seem to consider spiritual life above materialistic one.

Therefore I think it is quite strange, when the discussion turns to spirits, spirit world or astral experiences in general, people panic and warn not to meddle with these things or do their best to try to explain them away with projection or imagination etc.

Now we come to the nature of internal and external reality, if I can use those terms. I claim, that we are trapped within our minds, interpreting everything we perceive from internal or external reality through our minds, with our limited consciousness. But I also claim, that the consciousness can expand, become more and more united, able to see more and more clearly. In the beginning we are often unable to even understand, what part of the experience is something internal and what is really out there. And even when we become aware, that something is out there, we see it through our own views. This is quite similar to the dreaming. You see a monster in your dreams, but after waking, you see it was just an image within your own mind. You can analyze it, meditate it or face it in the lucid dream, to understand what did it represent. But if we just forget it, throw it away, we may never become consciousness of the deeper layers of the experience.

As general remark about spiritual and astral experiences, when we become more and more accustomed to them, we grow in understanding about their nature. And I think, this can only happen through experience. We can create different philosophies, collection of descriptions of different mental states, tables of hierarchies etc., but when we really experience them, they often blow our expectations away. Opposing the idea some seemed to uphold in the discussion about mediums, many spiritual practices (in traditions of yoga, meditation, Buddhism, Taoism, rising the aethyrs etc.) the practitioner is trying to increase consciousness, make it more penetrating, become more clear and awake. Yes, there has been passive states in channeling entities etc., but most occultists try to more active approach. For example astral projection and in some cases lucid dreaming is very different from a dream state. It is something, where you consciousness is active and can be even more so than it is often in waking state. When you encounter something in there, you have your normal faculties of thinking and can question the vision of a monster, ghost, guru, angel, friend, dead relative etc.

In the beginning some seem to experience evil entities like spirits or other mythical beings. I think this is just their own projections of repressed sides, their own fears etc. And some of the projections can be experienced as vampirizing monsters as part of your consciousness and life force is in them and the fears grow from your fear. But more accustomed you become to these practices, more easy it is to see through the images, see what they represent etc. You can question and speak with our own subconsciousness directly. And you will very early on notice how different the state is. For example it seems quite impossible to lie in the astral projection. If you try or the other tries, your real motivation or inner thoughts are instantly revealed. After practising for a while, you start to lose the fear of hidden motives of the ghosts etc. And you can more easily distinguish if the encountered spiritual master, angel, daemon, spirit, elemental etc., is just your own projection. As it most often is. And you are aware yourself trying to fool yourself.

So, I really wonder, if we try to avoid astral and spiritual realms out of fear, how we really evolve to become more spiritual? I think we must be willing to face our own projections, lies, personified fears, our subconsciousness and see through the images in the collective consciousness.

Just to make this even a bit on topic, here is a blog post, that might bring some ideas to the discussion. I am not saying it is accurate, but it still might give some sources where to start looking in case people are interested how these concepts have evolved.

https://deadbutdreaming.wordpress.com/2 ... d-faeries/
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Smaragd
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Smaragd »

But is not the critique out of place:

1. If neutrality of these entities have already been established in this topic?

2. If we understand labeling spirits with warnings is a practical way to find proper relation to them according to their nature? This builds consciousness towards these spirits, which is contrary to panic or explaining spirits away.

When I or someone else here has given alternative possibilities to explain paranormal phenomena by something more casual, I suggest everyone reading would keep their cool and understand this is a public forum. By not taking the mundane explanations in to consideration is a way to accelerate psychosis of the most vulnerable of us. Every step towards the mind bending nature of occultism is indeed dangerous and there are almost all the time some people around SoA (and as historical accounts shows, pretty much every occult movement) who are on the brink of a full blown psychosis or there already. This might not be visible to most of us, so I understand why it is not taken in to consideration here. EDIT: In other words, let us try to not take things personally.

(This intricacy regarding dangers of public discussion is just one example, and I would advise every serious occultist to think for both sides of things carefully for the sake of balance before digging themselves in to a hole wherefrom polarized accusations basing on projections will eventually be thrown. Questions can be asked, but let's try to keep our internal battles in check and respectfully seek help for them from neutral discussions rather than projecting the battles on each others.)

I am not simply parrotting some Theosophical theory when speaking about these warnings regarding certain kinds of spirits. Rather I speak from experience. When it comes to elementals, I know them personally as I deal with them every day. As a coarse example, even a mild addiction to anything makes you understand how they work. I also know them personally from how I am, or people close to me are tempted for selfishness. The elementals are not the one’s who are evil, rather we have imprinted our karma on them and then these elementals compulsively repeat that programming which we are then tempted by, and consequently we are responsible to change their course. Thus indeed it is we as human beings who are evil, not the spirits themselves however vampiristic they are, if we let that programming repeat itself through us. This arrow pointing us to be the ones responsible, or possibly evil, does nothing to the fact that some spirits have a nature that can be very well called vampiristic. We should not attach our own (Azazelian outcast) sentiments on the neutral observations of vampiristic or other negative or left-side attributes some spirits carry by nature or by programming.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Aperiemus
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Aperiemus »

Zeraim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:41 pm Therefore I think it is quite strange, when the discussion turns to spirits, spirit world or astral experiences in general, people panic and warn not to meddle with these things or do their best to try to explain them away with projection or imagination etc.
Smaragd wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:28 pm By not taking the mundane explanations in to consideration is a way to accelerate psychosis of the most vulnerable of us. Every step towards the mind bending nature of occultism is indeed dangerous and there are almost all the time some people around SoA (and as historical accounts shows, pretty much every occult movement) who are on the brink of a full blown psychosis or there already.
Some thoughts on the practical ethics (admin is free to put it on another topic if wishes):

The practical ethics of the occult communities has to take into consideration all the different tensions between realities. By realities I mean all the realities within the subjective and the objective. By objective I don’t mean fixed ultimate truth, but a relative, continually shifting approximation, which allows me to be in contact with others like me - and I am not just part of one ”we”, but many. In concrete terms, I can have a particular type of private paranormal experience, which might in itself contain tensions (tensions between reality of senses, reality of emotions, reality of rational thought), and I reflect this experience against what someone else says. That someone can be a part of a certain ”we” or even a part of a certain ”they” and can either verify or falsify my experience or remain neutral - in any case tensions may rise, or they may be relieved. The whole equation is complicated by the manner in which I approach the others in general, or rather, how I believe the others approach me: do I believe that they want my best, or do I think that they are after me, or want to harm me etc.

When the said tensions rise there can be detrimental effects. Tensions can appear amongst any of the said elements. Speculating from a psychological point of view (and this is to be taken with a huge grain of salt, since I’m not a psychologist, nor I claim to be) these effects can be almost anything from mania, depression, addiction, anxiety to paranoia. Naturally then I should try not to feed the most destructive sides of someone else’s being. I should not be making things worse by escalating the tensions. Psychosis is but one outcome of it.

Another example could be: I find myself drawn towards an occult community on the internet for the reason that I don’t find resonance with people near me in the matters of, let’s say, paranormal encounters. If I were to share an experience on a discussion board and then get an answer which feels as someone is downplaying my experience as ”just a projection”, that might not just be frustrating, but also ultimately depressing. I’m left alone with a reality, which apparently seems to be composed of nothing but illusions - according to everyone else, so there must be something wrong with me. A fertile ground for bleak derealization. Or then if this downplaying of my experience causes me to disregard everything that someone else says (I put that someone who downplays into a box labeled "they"), my frustration might prompt me to get cocky and start driving the astral freeway without safety belts on, because "I'll show them how it's done"

Of course these things don’t happen all the time, it might be even rare for things to go that far, and ultimately I should strive towards an integrated wholeness where I am not hung up on what someone else says. But for some, there is still a long journey ahead.

From a perspective I’m trying to lay out, the fragmentation of the self must be considered on all sides, whether the fragmentation is based on ”demonizing demons” or ”getting permanently lost in the mirror maze of astral”. Having or sharing positive or emotional experiences with entities is not in itself a sign of weakness, naivete, or unintelligence. The existence of entities aiding ascension in one way or another is plausible. Even with taxonomy, the point is always to evaluate every situation individually - that is kind of what love does.
Istar wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:36 pm In my worldview, everything is consciousness. Elementals, demons, hungry ghosts and ancestral spirits are consciousness. The division into good and bad spirits is artificial. I think that a person's own views on spirits have a considerable influence on the content of experiences. If the attitude toward spirits is negative, the encounters are more likely to be negative. Projection causes a person not to be able to relate neutrally to the thing they experience.
Zeraim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:41 pm You can question and speak with our own subconsciousness directly. And you will very early on notice how different the state is. For example it seems quite impossible to lie in the astral projection. If you try or the other tries, your real motivation or inner thoughts are instantly revealed. After practising for a while, you start to lose the fear of hidden motives of the ghosts etc. And you can more easily distinguish if the encountered spiritual master, angel, daemon, spirit, elemental etc., is just your own projection.
A thought on metaphysics:

It feels as if I have a different emphasis concerning the nature of how the self (not Self) functions, or what the subconscious does, that makes me prone to think that the challenges of deception or self-deception run quite deep. I have also heard a claim that when people do mnemonics, or ars memoria (such as build astral memory palaces), it is hard to disagree with the learnt material, be they bible passages, poetry, decimals of pi or what have you. This emphasis of mine might very well be a temperamental difference, or then a lack of practical astral working on my part, but if you are interested, I would be glad to discuss the issue within another topic. I remember there was a topic labeled "I see the world as..", in which that could fit nicely. That is not to say, that we can't continue here as well.
Zeraim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:41 pm https://deadbutdreaming.wordpress.com/2 ... d-faeries/
Thanks! Looks interesting, have to check that out.
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