Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

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Silvaeon
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by Silvaeon »

Some loose thoughts about black metal as an occult art-form, because it's been on my mind a little bit lately.

Like a couple people here, I haven't been listening to too much black metal lately. I think that's due to a bit of an adverse reaction to the wider "scene". Of course this is not grounds to judge the genre as a whole, and there is still plenty that I find worthwhile in it. But the older I get, the more disappointed I get when there is so much worship of violence, misanthropy, politics, Nietzschean Ubermensch attitudes, a huge focus on being "extreme", "shocking" and "reactionary" instead of trying to express the inner self, etc. etc. These things have always existed in black metal to some degree, but I just don't have time for it anymore. It just feels empty and childish more often than not. And it is that sort of mentality that gives me a very negative reaction to the music and that feeling of sickness a few have mentioned. To me black metal should be spiritual and sacred music, but whining about how things "should" be is a slippery slope, and it's not like I have any claim on how others should feel or act. So, I just focus on those little pockets that I'm able to still find the magic in, and continue to create in my own little pocket on my own terms.

I'm kind of two minds when it comes to BM these days. I still love all the classic records for their sound. The "necrosound" and primitive playing as was being discussed that does manages to create a feeling of wholeness and magic. But looking at many of those records, I think it's important to remember that many of them were made by kids. That youthful rebellion, energy and naivety resulted in some timeless and really magical SOUNDS which are inspiring to this day and do have that mystical aura about them. How purposeful or accidental this was is up for debate. But looking at a lot of the old bands lyrically, spiritually or philosophically leaves a lot to be desired, at least for me. Some were better than others. But overall it was kids rebelling, and I'm not sure how serious it should be taken. The aura of the 80's and 90's is undeniable, and I think it did sew the seeds for a lot of occult exploration, but was it seriously occult music? I don't know - I wasn't there, this is just revisionist musings from someone who came to it later. Regardless, for all those classic bands and records, I am listening to them for the music and the aura, nothing else - and that remains fantastic to me.

So, time goes on, black metal expands drastically, a lot of violence, misanthropy and silliness continues. But I think somewhere along the line people started to see the potential in those earlier youthful creations and expand on them - and while I agree that a lot of the magic is lost nowadays, I can't help but be impressed by bands like Nightbringer and Schammasch for example. I do miss the rawer production on some of this stuff, but the depth of the compositions and the depth of the lyrics is really something special in my opinion, and something I can take very seriously. Personally, if I could play like this, I absolutely would. For better or worse my own creations live on in the sloppy necrosound world.

I'll probably leave it at that for now. In short, there is such a focus on negativity in the genre that causes me to lose interest. But when you remove yourself from the "scene" (as I always have been) there is still magic to be found and magic to be made. And whenever I get bored or tired of the genre, there are whole other completely unrelated magical things to listen to and get excited about.
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Silvaeon
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by Silvaeon »

I noticed there is a new book being released through Aeon Sophia on this topic. I'm not familiar with any of the artists contributing, but perhaps this could be interesting to someone here. https://www.aeonsophiapress.com/Music_i ... 15805.aspx
Music in Witchcraft and the Occult: An Anthology.

In the works is a brand new book on the usage of music and musical instruments within the modes of occult ritual practices and witchcraft.

This can be the usage of music in ones own private environment of witchcraft rituals and/or the occult with its symbols and meanings and the invocations to tune in with the secretive and the hidden energies during live performances.

Presented in this book are a very wide variety of essays which focus in their own unique way on music and its place in witchcraft and the occult and vice/versa.

The articles are written by genuine practitioners of the Arte of Magick and who are active musicians with their bands and/or solo artists.

Articles are written by:
- Aaron Piccirillo author for Clavis Journal & Appalachia Journal
- Ilya Affectvs (of the band: Corona Barathri)
- Edgar Kerval (of the band: Emme Ya)
- Kakophonix (of the band HVILE I KAOS)
- Jack Grayle author of The Hekatæon, Ixaxaar.
- Jon Vermilion author of Asaya Ka Luxa & Zakael, Aeon Sophia Press.
- Keeley Swete and Jessica Rose
(both of the band She Scotia)
- Zemaemidjehuty author of The Book of Flesh and Feather, Theion Publishing.
- Ekki neinn (of the band NYIÞ)
- Abby Helasdottir (of the band Gydja)
- zenKOAL (of the band Brujentrophy)
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Nefastos
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by Nefastos »

Answering Guldalder's thoughts on black metal from another thread (What are you listening at the moment).
Guldalder wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 11:55 pmbased on the reading I've done about the different early Nordic black metal scenes over the years, I'm convinced that genuine Satanism (in any form) wasn't practiced amongst the Norwegian musicians (not until later, with bands from ca 2000s onwards), whereas Sweden and Finland "were first", given the foundation of the Misanthropic Luciferian Order and rise of several bands with theistic Satanist beliefs (Arckanum, Dissection, Archgoat, Watain, Satanic Warmaster).

Maybe not very surprising, since black metal in Norway evolved from espousing anti-authoritarian/punk attitudes in the mid 80s to anti-Christianity in the early 90s, while combining themes from both Scandinavian folklore and Satanic symbols in the music and its presentation. But it seems that those early bands left their so called Satanic ties to simply imagery, much like their inspirational sources (Venom, Bathory).

That might be, but it rises – or rather, deepens – the question: what is "genuine Satanism"?

I find much of what I'd call genuine Satanism from the 90's original Norwegian bands. Artists can always later tell that they were not serious or meant something else, but it doesn't take the spirit away from where it was & remains in the art.

It can be that some bands in Finland & Sweden chose Satan, or that name, differently. But what Satanism – or even religious, spiritual, or idealistic Satanism – really is, remains a very wide and hard question.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
obnoxion
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by obnoxion »

Nefastos wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 11:24 am Answering Guldalder's thoughts on black metal from another thread (What are you listening at the moment).
Guldalder wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 11:55 pmbased on the reading I've done about the different early Nordic black metal scenes over the years, I'm convinced that genuine Satanism (in any form) wasn't practiced amongst the Norwegian musicians (not until later, with bands from ca 2000s onwards), whereas Sweden and Finland "were first", given the foundation of the Misanthropic Luciferian Order and rise of several bands with theistic Satanist beliefs (Arckanum, Dissection, Archgoat, Watain, Satanic Warmaster).

Maybe not very surprising, since black metal in Norway evolved from espousing anti-authoritarian/punk attitudes in the mid 80s to anti-Christianity in the early 90s, while combining themes from both Scandinavian folklore and Satanic symbols in the music and its presentation. But it seems that those early bands left their so called Satanic ties to simply imagery, much like their inspirational sources (Venom, Bathory).

That might be, but it rises – or rather, deepens – the question: what is "genuine Satanism"?

I find much of what I'd call genuine Satanism from the 90's original Norwegian bands. Artists can always later tell that they were not serious or meant something else, but it doesn't take the spirit away from where it was & remains in the art.

It can be that some bands in Finland & Sweden chose Satan, or that name, differently. But what Satanism – or even religious, spiritual, or idealistic Satanism – really is, remains a very wide and hard question.
I gave up the thought about the artist's commitment to satanism when I lost my interest in BM. Nowdays I am much, much more focused on the actual piece of art. Often, it seems, I can find the dark spirit I am looking for from unexpected places. And on the other hand, many times I don't find the depth (it is depth that this spirit nevet lacks) of the Dark Spirit from blatantly satanic art. It isn't always enough to speak of the Devil to make him appear.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Guldalder
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by Guldalder »

Nefastos wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 11:24 am
That might be, but it rises – or rather, deepens – the question: what is "genuine Satanism"?

I find much of what I'd call genuine Satanism from the 90's original Norwegian bands. Artists can always later tell that they were not serious or meant something else, but it doesn't take the spirit away from where it was & remains in the art.

It can be that some bands in Finland & Sweden chose Satan, or that name, differently. But what Satanism – or even religious, spiritual, or idealistic Satanism – really is, remains a very wide and hard question.
I completely agree in that it is a difficult question, and I want to clarify that I in no way meant to "beat down" any other forms of Satanism (than what for ex. Watain's or Behexen's members practice) in my post. The tone of my post seemed to imply that I draw a difference between "true" and "false" Satanism in some way - humorously enough in a similar way some black metal puritans would deem bands "true" and "false" to the genre's perceived ideals. In my opinion, there is clear value to several sorts expressions of what we can call Satanism, as long as they're practiced to benefit others (maybe even oneself, too).

What I instead should've written was: I don't believe any of these early Norwegian acts genuinely practiced theistic Satanism. There was quite a bit of interest in the works of Crowley and (at least early on) LaVey amongst members who were to become part of the so called "Inner Black Circle", but both Norwegian and international media labelled them devil worshippers from the start of the scene publicity in early 1992, which I have found no evidence for.

Were there LaVeyan Satanists in the Oslo scene? Yes, take for example the members of Emperor, just like in the Finnish scene you had Beherit. The main arguments for some sort of devil worship though, or religious Satanism seem to stem from Øystein Aarseth's interviews ("I believe in a horned devil, a personified Satan..." stems from an issue of the Finnish Kill Yourself! Magazine in 1992 - the quote was apparently a direct response to Beherit's ideas).
One of the issues with Aarseth is how many of his friends and colleagues have been open about his establishment of a very specific image that he upheld to the outside world, only incorporating Satanism because of what it could do for him, benefit people's perception of him.

On the other hand, do we really know what he or anyone else involved did believe? You bring up a good point in that the musicians can claim this and that afterwards, maybe in this instance wanting to distance themselves from the crimes of the 90s. Varg Vikernes might be the most interesting example among these people...

The truth of the matter absolutely doesn't take away the impact of the music that was produced in the early Oslo scene.
About his intelligence should no man be boastful, rather conscious of mind. -Hávamál
obnoxion
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by obnoxion »

Guldalder wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 4:48 pm On the other hand, do we really know what he or anyone else involved did believe?
This is a good question, and one that changed my attitude towards occult themed music and its makers. The degree of devotion to their ideals of these musicians was a serious question for me when I was younger. But certain extremism goes with young age, I suppose. Also, eventually it just dawned on me that extreme devotion to ideals does not correlate with extremely touching art.
Guldalder wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 4:48 pmLaVeyan
Speaking of LaVeyan metal musicians, how do you like King Diamond? I think his work is brilliant, and he comes across as a very devoted, genuine and well mannered person. I've understood that although he identifies as an atheist, he is a strong believer in various paranormal phenomena, and magic is a big part of his life. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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Nefastos
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by Nefastos »

Thanks for clarifying the exact point on theism, Guldalder! This is an interesting point to ponder, and not only regarding to black metal - or music - or art in general - but really in everything.

For speaking about not actually knowing what people truly believed & believe, this is true in every case, save those very few who take a very focused philosophical view. Even academics often prefer to rise some wall of fog between themselves and what they say & publish. So much more the artists, whose art practically demands a certain play with masks and masked entities.

And even when it comes to philosophers, endless debates what one really meant, and what one really felt, and in what sense he meant and felt what he did, will ensue sooner or later (if the philosopher is interesting enough). Was Socrates truly a Platonic ideal, was Nietzsche a philosopher or an artist? &c.

With these quite wide circles I try to draw a spiral of sorts around the question on theism. What does it mean to a theist, and what atheism actually mean for an atheist (e.g. Laveyan Satanist)? These very often seem to be sociological rather than actually metaphysical questions for a person. One can believe in things that seem to be quite contradictory. Not every human being is a great thinker, and there are many who actually prefer the freedom of chaoticism to restricting way of analytical thinking. People may believe and not believe at the same time, and yet say something other to their friends, and the fourth thing to the interviewers.

This is actually not something I personally approve, but I think it's a fact. I would very much encourage people to be more "cruel" with themselves, as it comes to these questions about one's world view. But thinking that people would actually act that way in any large scale is most likely utopistic. And Left Hand Path as the Western mind considers it is the easiest one to make up one's own mind and, to use the expression of an ex-member, "speak one's own language". What remains at this point to the listener is a Hickman's shrug.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
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Guldalder
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by Guldalder »

obnoxion wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 9:46 pm Speaking of LaVeyan metal musicians, how do you like King Diamond? I think his work is brilliant, and he comes across as a very devoted, genuine and well mannered person. I've understood that although he identifies as an atheist, he is a strong believer in various paranormal phenomena, and magic is a big part of his life. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
I have to agree, I think King Diamond's works are amazing at their best, even decent at their worst. Album-wise my favorite is Mercyful Fate's "Don't Break the Oath" from 1984.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUwrG6PMYnU

Songs like "Welcome Princes of Hell" (usually misspelled as "Princess") above and "The Oath" are incredible not just musically, but in how easily one can visualize the oath swearing and ritual performance that the lyrics revolve around. The great cover art fits unusually well with the material, too.
It seems as if the album is the predecessor to King's later idea of concept albums in his own band (Abigail, The Puppet Master etc.), since it apparently tells a story about a Satanic ritual or a string of several ones. Haven't looked into it all too much, but it's rather a guess based on the lyrics of the aforementioned along with "A Dangerous Meeting" and "Come to the Sabbath".

You are absolutely right, King has stated that he's an atheist, but that he also believes in some paranormal phenomena - all of them ghosts and poltergeist as far as I know. There's one story of his from around 1985, when relics on his home altar were violently thrown on the ground while him and Metallica's members were in the other room, and the event itself was witnessed by Timi Hansen and his girlfriend. She was also terrified of some entities "growling" at her. Here's a link to a later interview where King mentions it:

https://www.loudersound.com/features/ki ... -metallica

There's also an early video interview where he tells of Mercyful Fate's members witnessing (him included) a candle (?) being raised in the air from an altar. Can't find it at the moment, unfortunately...
Nefastos wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 9:40 am One can believe in things that seem to be quite contradictory. Not every human being is a great thinker, and there are many who actually prefer the freedom of chaoticism to restricting way of analytical thinking. People may believe and not believe at the same time, and yet say something other to their friends, and the fourth thing to the interviewers.

This is actually not something I personally approve, but I think it's a fact. I would very much encourage people to be more "cruel" with themselves, as it comes to these questions about one's world view.
Hear, hear! It definitely is interesting to see how people can hold onto outright conflicting beliefs - been both a witness to it and someone who's guilty of it himself in the past. Honesty should really be the key...
About his intelligence should no man be boastful, rather conscious of mind. -Hávamál
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Polyhymnia
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

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obnoxion wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 9:46 pm Speaking of LaVeyan metal musicians, how do you like King Diamond? I think his work is brilliant, and he comes across as a very devoted, genuine and well mannered person. I've understood that although he identifies as an atheist, he is a strong believer in various paranormal phenomena, and magic is a big part of his life. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
I personally love King Diamond and Mercyful Fate. I love a good concept album, and there's no shortage here. He really does seem to be a lovely human all around. I took my eldest child to see him a province over last October, and it was an incredible show. He had a donation station set up for toys for kids for Christmas. The stage show was unlike anything I had ever seen (and I've seen Alice Cooper) and I also got to see Silvaeon there, which was wonderful. Life long fan!
"Limited love asks for possession of the beloved, but the unlimited asks only for itself." -Kahlil Gibran
obnoxion
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Re: Occult Themes in Different Music Genres

Post by obnoxion »

Polyhymnia wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 8:23 pm Alice Cooper)
I just bought two AC t-shirts...

I really appreciate the likes of King Diamond, Alice Cooper and Ghost, because they present the darkness in a way that everyone can enjoy it together, and perhaps be uplifted by it. And i am a fan of the shock rock genre, especially from the 70's and early 80's. Its strength is, when compared to black metal for example, that it thrives on mass success, and isn't diminished by loss of underground credentials.
One day of Brahma has 14 Indras; his life has 54 000 Indras. One day of Vishnu is the lifetime of Brahma. The lifetime of Vishnu is one day of Shiva.
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