What are you reading at the moment?

Discussion on literature other than by the Star of Azazel.
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Utthavat
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by Utthavat »

Smaragd wrote: Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:01 pm
I wonder if I could find practical use for that as a tool of interpretation or if it would start to go too brittle a network of meanings. I guess some exceptions could be made to use it. Like moving a toe over a more strict bounds of attitude towards gematria. Playful mischief, I reckon!

First thought of practical use that inspired me was to expand the ability to use words connected by a number artistically and intuitively, in poetry or writing lyrics to a song.

When finding a subject or a word of interest, finding what other words that number of the word of interest represents in the same language, could give a fascinating new angle for the writer to write a poem from.

I have not tried this really, but if I would, I'd probably try to do it in a way that the poem would aim to touch or move a piece within the reader as a logic, meaningful and beautiful piece by its rhythm and metre, texture and nuances, obvious meanings and with its less obvious but still traditional symbolism and double-meanings perhaps, regardless of the hidden number meanings, them being more like another layer in the web of possible interpretation and easter egg and the hidden life of a poem, mainly for the writer himself to be aware of.

It was also mentioned in the Eastern Mysteries, that all of those languages are like different entities and have a unique way of regarding meanings to a certain number. That obviously they are not identical systems in the way languages are built, since no culture is perfectly identical to another, like there is no single snowflake that would be identical to other.
The writer draw lines from these 13 symbolic languages to 13 Enochian Angels. Interesting thought that requires more study from my part.

But that some numbers do hold an interestingly similiar meanings and correspondences between the languages of different ages, gives at least the impression of the possibility of languages evolving from the same root that would seem to be Numbers.

Ofcourse another interesting practical way would be to study the names of different entities in the exoteric scriptures that are held meaningful by esoteric traditions, and see what names hold the same values in one language. A very basic Gematric method, that I've not dived deep into yet, but that keeps calling my interest to find ways to interpret some scriptures in a different (perhaps more occult and esoteric) light.
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Smaragd
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by Smaragd »

Utthavat wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:45 am
First thought of practical use that inspired me was to expand the ability to use words connected by a number artistically and intuitively, in poetry or writing lyrics to a song.

When finding a subject or a word of interest, finding what other words that number of the word of interest represents in the same language, could give a fascinating new angle for the writer to write a poem from.

I have not tried this really, but if I would, I'd probably try to do it in a way that the poem would aim to touch or move a piece within the reader as a logic, meaningful and beautiful piece by its rhythm and metre, texture and nuances, obvious meanings and with its less obvious but still traditional symbolism and double-meanings perhaps, regardless of the hidden number meanings, them being more like another layer in the web of possible interpretation and easter egg and the hidden life of a poem, mainly for the writer himself to be aware of.
This all looks quite sound, a fine way to approach writing poetry. I'm left wondering how Hulse gives numbers to the other languages where the letters might not already have a numerical value as in Hebrew where they write numbers with the letters themselves. Is Hebrew taken as the basis of the values or is the numerical values basing on alphabetical order. I guess I should take a look to the book. Could be a good macro perspective to gematria studies.
Utthavat wrote: Tue Sep 06, 2022 11:45 am
The writer draw lines from these 13 symbolic languages to 13 Enochian Angels. Interesting thought that requires more study from my part.
I have no idea about Enochian Angels, but this sparked an idea for a study group that could be organized under Graal, yet held publicly here on the forum for anyone to take part of. It would go through angelic systems/hierarchies with comparative attitude. Paul Foster Case has said that the Enochian system of Dee is a fragmented system taken from Kabbala, so perhaps there should be at least:

1. A Kabbalistical text: Good suggestions welcome.
2. A Neoplatonic text: On the Celestial Hierarchy, Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite.
+ 3. Additional sources picked up individually (these could range from the Enochian system and Gnosticism of Pistis Sophia to inverse demonic hierarchies etc.)

The two first books would have their own topics where a small portion would be gone through simultaneously on weekly schedule. Comparative notions from the additional books and both of the main books could be written in both of the topics. Any interest for such a study group? A more precise schedule would be determined once the choice of the two main books would be set in to stone.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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SanatKumara
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by SanatKumara »

Totally supporting the idea of Qabbala study group. Im thinking about joining the brotherhood, so this would be great opportunity to get closer to it.
My heart is Your home! O Mother! Dance in the Charnel ground of my heart which You created and turn me into a warrior of Yours!
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Smaragd
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by Smaragd »

SanatKumara wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:39 pm Totally supporting the idea of Qabbala study group. Im thinking about joining the brotherhood, so this would be great opportunity to get closer to it.
Good to hear. We will still have to look in to the Qabbalistic parts more carefully. We could take multiple sources of Judaism to study, because it might be a bit fragmentary information when it comes to the Divine Hierarchies. At least Zohar has some pages on them that could be compared to the more complete study from Pseudo-Dionysos. I'll do some preparations and try to get this running during the New Moon on the 26th of September, if that fits everyone. Alternatively we could take more time to prepare our schedules for this if need be. I'll make a topic for the planning. Already heard frater Nefastos was interested joining us occasionally when his time allows.
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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SanatKumara
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by SanatKumara »

Smaragd wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:19 pm
SanatKumara wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 7:39 pm Totally supporting the idea of Qabbala study group. Im thinking about joining the brotherhood, so this would be great opportunity to get closer to it.
Good to hear. We will still have to look in to the Qabbalistic parts more carefully. We could take multiple sources of Judaism to study, because it might be a bit fragmentary information when it comes to the Divine Hierarchies. At least Zohar has some pages on them that could be compared to the more complete study from Pseudo-Dionysos. I'll do some preparations and try to get this running during the New Moon on the 26th of September, if that fits everyone. Alternatively we could take more time to prepare our schedules for this if need be. I'll make a topic for the planning. Already heard frater Nefastos was interested joining us occasionally when his time allows.

Sounds good! Keep me updated.
My heart is Your home! O Mother! Dance in the Charnel ground of my heart which You created and turn me into a warrior of Yours!
Utthavat
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by Utthavat »

Smaragd wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:46 am
The two first books would have their own topics where a small portion would be gone through simultaneously on weekly schedule. Comparative notions from the additional books and both of the main books could be written in both of the topics. Any interest for such a study group? A more precise schedule would be determined once the choice of the two main books would be set in to stone.

That is a great idea, I'm interested.
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Smaragd
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

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Utthavat wrote:
That is a great idea, I'm interested.
Very glad to hear!
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
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Nefastos
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by Nefastos »

Smaragd wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:19 pmWe will still have to look in to the Qabbalistic parts more carefully. We could take multiple sources of Judaism to study, because it might be a bit fragmentary information when it comes to the Divine Hierarchies. At least Zohar has some pages on them that could be compared to the more complete study from Pseudo-Dionysos.

To find one good, reliable source for qabbalistic angelology might be too much to ask. There are tons of modern books on the subject, but they are not very trustworthy. And while there is a lot of teaching on angels in Zohar, it is scattered all over the thousands of pages of the original material. I'd perhaps suggest moving your source number 1 (Kabbalistical text) together with 3 (sources picked up individually).

One recommendable source for study is Adam McLean's (composed and edited) A Treatise on Angel Magic, which has many classical text versions, unencumbered but reliable, and the last time I checked, available without great expenses.
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Utthavat
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by Utthavat »

Nefastos wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 1:19 pm
Smaragd wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 5:19 pmWe will still have to look in to the Qabbalistic parts more carefully. We could take multiple sources of Judaism to study, because it might be a bit fragmentary information when it comes to the Divine Hierarchies. At least Zohar has some pages on them that could be compared to the more complete study from Pseudo-Dionysos.

To find one good, reliable source for qabbalistic angelology might be too much to ask. There are tons of modern books on the subject, but they are not very trustworthy. And while there is a lot of teaching on angels in Zohar, it is scattered all over the thousands of pages of the original material. I'd perhaps suggest moving your source number 1 (Kabbalistical text) together with 3 (sources picked up individually).

One recommendable source for study is Adam McLean's (composed and edited) A Treatise on Angel Magic, which has many classical text versions, unencumbered but reliable, and the last time I checked, available without great expenses.

I just read from Secret Doctrine III from 1888 (page number 190 in Finnish translation), Blavatsky coming to conclusion after series of other conclusions that:


"...the Jewish Kabbala is only a twisted echo of the Chaldean secret doctrine, and that the true Kabbala is to be found only from the Chaldean Book of Numbers, that is currently only in possession of some Persian Sufis..."

She was also talking about the Zohar a lot and giving for example the following conclusion in the same book (in pages 186-187):

"...But we shall limit our research to Kabbala and mainly on Zohar, that we also call by the name of Midrash. This book, whose teachings were delivered first time 70-110 a.D., is known to have been lost, and its contents broke down to numerous smaller scripts all the way till the thirteenth century. The thought that it was compiled by Moses de León from Valladolid, Spain, pretending it being a representation from Shim'on ben Johain, is ridiculous, but Munk related to it approvingly - although he points out more than one new addition in Zohar. At the same time it is more than certain, that Moses de León wrote the modern book of Zohar, and that in its compiled form its coloring is more christian than a many genuine Christian writing. Munk expresses a reason to that by saying that it is obvious that the author "used ancient chronicles, among them certain Midrashes, being compilations of descriptions of lores and the Bible, that we do not possess these days....""

Could you give some insight on the book/or books that you regard as original material of Zohar?
Utthavat
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Re: What are you reading at the moment?

Post by Utthavat »

Utthavat wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:55 pm

I just read from Secret Doctrine III from 1888 (page number 190 in Finnish translation), Blavatsky coming to conclusion after series of other conclusions that:


"...the Jewish Kabbala is only a twisted echo of the Chaldean secret doctrine, and that the true Kabbala is to be found only from the Chaldean Book of Numbers, that is currently only in possession of some Persian Sufis..."

Ps.
I must correct that the original English version of Secret Doctrine part III (Secret Doctrine Part III being the name of the Finnish translation translated to English) is from 1938 and released by the name: "The Secret Doctrine, The Synthesis of Science, Religion and Philosophy, Volume 5"
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