Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Rational discussions on metaphysical and abstract topics.
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Smaragd
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Smaragd »

Thank you Aperiemus for offering the perspective of tensions. Some interesting choices of words there I'm sure to take with me when thinking about these things in the future.
Aperiemus wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 9:03 am Another example could be: I find myself drawn towards an occult community on the internet for the reason that I don’t find resonance with people near me in the matters of, let’s say, paranormal encounters. If I were to share an experience on a discussion board and then get an answer which feels as someone is downplaying my experience as ”just a projection”, that might not just be frustrating, but also ultimately depressing. I’m left alone with a reality, which apparently seems to be composed of nothing but illusions - according to everyone else, so there must be something wrong with me. A fertile ground for bleak derealization. Or then if this downplaying of my experience causes me to disregard everything that someone else says (I put that someone who downplays into a box labeled "they"), my frustration might prompt me to get cocky and start driving the astral freeway without safety belts on, because "I'll show them how it's done"
For this reason I usually try to make sure someone has already offered words regarding more deep diving perspective, or I try to give them myself, before or after offering the grounding perspective of casual gray explanations. Both are important when it comes to occultism, because in order to take proper flight with this philosophy is to understand how the different explanations can be all true at the same time even to the same exact experience. Observing these layers of the mind and reality, the astral experience pointed to by Zeraim is a good example:
Zeraim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:41 pm You can question and speak with our own subconsciousness directly. And you will very early on notice how different the state is. For example it seems quite impossible to lie in the astral projection. If you try or the other tries, your real motivation or inner thoughts are instantly revealed. After practising for a while, you start to lose the fear of hidden motives of the ghosts etc. And you can more easily distinguish if the encountered spiritual master, angel, daemon, spirit, elemental etc., is just your own projection. As it most often is. And you are aware yourself trying to fool yourself.
Here we observe how there are many layers to these experiences. There is the individual who projects, the projection is happening through different portions of the individual's mind. These portions or principles can be mapped, for example by the Hieroglyphic Key. According to the balance of the principles the projection is made by, the more there is chance for reliable portions of guidance to seep through to the projection. Here we can see that such astral travels are not entirely astral as we hopefully do not shut out the other parts of our minds when adventuring there, but the clairvoyant senses are observing the astral and thus behind interpretations and easily deceivable. It is not the astral which makes it impossible for some of us to hold on to a lie without our projection instantly calling it out, those are the higher principles within us affecting the projection.

Now, with more concrete grip on the matters of this topic, some elements in that astral experience could be seen as the substance on which the projection is made. Their nature allow us to give them forms we will, and the programming we will. Their nature is to follow it blindly even to neutrally vampiristic states or harmfully vampiristic states. This is why it is said that occultists need to eventually become pure even in their dreams and even in their thinking. When we drink coffee each morning, we impress the habit on the astral, which is reinforced by the spirits of the coffea plant, and then this vampiric pattern emerges as an elemental where the elemental pushes our buttons to remember to repeat the pattern and give energy to it. My theory is that portions of elements become elementals in such charged state where they have been given a place of an entity within the electrifying vortex of a human being.

EDIT: Do you see karma imprinted on elements is the same as projections on elements, or do the weight of projection and karma differ somehow?
"Would to God that all the Lord's people were Prophets”, Numbers 11:29 as echoed by William Blake
Zeraim
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Zeraim »

Smaragd wrote: Sun Feb 26, 2023 11:37 am Observing these layers of the mind and reality, the astral experience pointed to by Zeraim is a good example:

Zeraim wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:41 pm
You can question and speak with our own subconsciousness directly. And you will very early on notice how different the state is. For example it seems quite impossible to lie in the astral projection. If you try or the other tries, your real motivation or inner thoughts are instantly revealed. After practising for a while, you start to lose the fear of hidden motives of the ghosts etc. And you can more easily distinguish if the encountered spiritual master, angel, daemon, spirit, elemental etc., is just your own projection. As it most often is. And you are aware yourself trying to fool yourself.

Here we observe how there are many layers to these experiences. There is the individual who projects, the projection is happening through different portions of the individual's mind. These portions or principles can be mapped, for example by the Hieroglyphic Key. According to the balance of the principles the projection is made by, the more there is chance for reliable portions of guidance to seep through to the projection. Here we can see that such astral travels are not entirely astral as we hopefully do not shut out the other parts of our minds when adventuring there, but the clairvoyant senses are observing the astral and thus behind interpretations and easily deceivable. It is not the astral which makes it impossible for some of us to hold on to a lie without our projection instantly calling it out, those are the higher principles within us affecting the projection.
This is one of the reasons for my frustration about this tendency to try to divide everything and trying to fit every concept to some philosophical structures. The astral projection is not that you become just a astral lump of light in one clearly definable level of existence. By being in physical body (I could say, your mind is just having a physical projection at that time) you experiencing the world with your physical senses, but you'll still have your other principles present...sometimes in varying degree. By shifting your focus to higher, or less physical planes, you do not lose your mind, nor emotions, and may even experience some higher principle more active and vivid. Just like when you sit to meditate, you will slowly withdraw your "mental faculties" from the physical plane, but the other faculties are still present. And by meditation here I mean active, conscious state instead of sleepy passive mindset.

The reason I emphasize the astral experiences and projection is not that I really see the astral dimensions as the main thing at all, but the fact that you will notice how much closer and more vivid the other higher principles become. And with practice you'll start to experience projections (I do not like the world, I regard it as a shifting the focus) to even higher planes. And for many, becoming fully conscious of the higher principles is the goal. No sane mind would love to float in mere astral for long, but to aim much "higher". But it is quite impossible to make clear divisions from where the one plane starts and where some ends. In case you travel beyond the astral, the experience changes very profoundly and can sometimes be as big just as it is to first time to really leave your body. But the borders of these experiences are not easily defined or the planes are not easily divided. And I think it is quite hard to practice anything if you try to skip the first step.
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Aperiemus
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Aperiemus »

Just a thought that popped into my mind, maybe it's just ruminating the same things already touched upon (not sure if there is something to be gained by discussing this, but here we go):

All entities, whether they be coffee plants, elementals, people, ascended masters seem to be mixtures of elements. In a different thread (Intelligence as a social concept) frater Nefastos brought up a table of correspondences concerning principles of intelligences and their sub-principles (sub-principles such as kâma manas of linga, manas of linga, kâma manas of kâma, etc. - 24 in total). By analogy, I could divide the other principles besides intelligences into subprinciples as well, giving me all different kinds examples of how f. ex. buddhi operates on a more concrete level. The hieroglyphic key thus expands into all directions in similar ways as those nested Trees of life you may have sometimes seen.

Since these principles and sub-principles (and even sub-sub-principles if we really want to get lost in the maze) are to be considered alive (maybe for the higher ones we can use the word archetype here), I can for example understand how:
Nefastos wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:21 pm A vampire is a spirit (whether the one of living or dead) who joins this intense lower thirst to one's strong black astral (= kâma manas tied to collective higher manas, but taking the first one as its point of self-identification).
Now, I’m curious, when dealing with a vampire - which has as its face something that is projected from me, and for reasons frater Zeraim pointed out, should not be dealt with prejudice and fear, nor put into neat little boxes - should I just ignore it (that is leave it be, for it is not in my hands to intervene with its downward process), or should I focus on it (that is, should I try in someway to love the vampire: say that it is not an ”it” but a ”he”)?

I am inclined to go with the first option, to ignore it, since I believe I am not nearly pure enough to confront a vampire. I believe that by lending my attention would only draw me into its void and not only harm me, but by proxy, those around me (vampires beget vampires). And just to be clear, even though I think I understand the karmic point of view Nefastos laid out, I believe all kinds of vampires do exist, all the way from the cryptozoological examples (collective fears manifested as a discrete ”physical” entities) to vampires of fiction (a symbol of a vampire as a persona for higher principles, the dark erotic amalgam) to those that could be considered to be at least a part of a persons addiction (drug addiction for example, sapping the body, the time, and material posessions).

To ignore a vampire has however the possibility of me not confronting the shadow manifest in it - and integration is part of the ascension. To always ignore the vampire could lead me to not pay attention to a sub-principle or a tension between sub-principles, and thus, the vampire keeps coming back, rises up from its coffin so to speak.

Sorry for long sentences, but I would like to finish editing this message and continue with my day. Does this line of thinking resonate with you or do you find objections to it? I am trying think of ways to bring this taxonomy of entities into practical level. I know that the simple answer is to always follow threefold Key, not to whip out a monster manual in order to figure out monster's weaknesses.
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Nefastos
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Nefastos »

Aperiemus wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 8:47 am
Nefastos wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 12:21 pmA vampire is a spirit (whether the one of living or dead) who joins this intense lower thirst to one's strong black astral (= kâma manas tied to collective higher manas, but taking the first one as its point of self-identification).


Now, I’m curious, when dealing with a vampire - which has as its face something that is projected from me, and for reasons frater Zeraim pointed out, should not be dealt with prejudice and fear, nor put into neat little boxes - should I just ignore it (that is leave it be, for it is not in my hands to intervene with its downward process), or should I focus on it (that is, should I try in someway to love the vampire: say that it is not an ”it” but a ”he”)?

I am inclined to go with the first option, to ignore it, since I believe I am not nearly pure enough to confront a vampire. I believe that by lending my attention would only draw me into its void and not only harm me, but by proxy, those around me (vampires beget vampires). And just to be clear, even though I think I understand the karmic point of view Nefastos laid out, I believe all kinds of vampires do exist, all the way from the cryptozoological examples (collective fears manifested as a discrete ”physical” entities) to vampires of fiction (a symbol of a vampire as a persona for higher principles, the dark erotic amalgam) to those that could be considered to be at least a part of a persons addiction (drug addiction for example, sapping the body, the time, and material posessions).

To ignore a vampire has however the possibility of me not confronting the shadow manifest in it - and integration is part of the ascension. To always ignore the vampire could lead me to not pay attention to a sub-principle or a tension between sub-principles, and thus, the vampire keeps coming back, rises up from its coffin so to speak.

Sorry for long sentences, but I would like to finish editing this message and continue with my day. Does this line of thinking resonate with you or do you find objections to it? I am trying think of ways to bring this taxonomy of entities into practical level. I know that the simple answer is to always follow threefold Key, not to whip out a monster manual in order to figure out monster's weaknesses.

I love your way of both practical grounding and elevating into metaphysics of this interesting subject, brother. I had to quote nearly the whole post since it touches so many good points in this analogy which is, indeed, both mythical and almost everyday.

"Vampire" is an archetype, albeit a very complex and detailed one. Luckily evil human beings who factually rise from the grave in their linga sharîra are rare to the point of being non-existent, but exactly the same happens with the other principles also. Like you pointed out, most common phenomenon concerns deep sunk addicts. In such a person, the constant habit of giving away one's own principle of individual TRY has perverted the astral forms (usually all the three of them, White, Red and Black or linga, kâma and lower manas) and swapped their polarity. Such a person will be unable to be freed from matter after death, as would happen in a natural process. To the point such a person has access to one's own individual higher triad, they also vampirizes those higher principles. People who are ingenious but also extremely selfish have taken this path, and to add to your list of mythical abilities, they receive from this a hypnotical quality of sorts, the enchanting charisma of a true narcissist.

When dealing with factual evil, sound judgment (which is quite a different thing from prejudice) and avoidance and banishment (which are very close to fear, but not giving up to that fear) are wisdom even for a balanced, loving Satanist. Nowadays it is very common to find books and ideas about embracing evil as something just misunderstood. People who think this way should similarly try to get difficult diseases, eat shards of glass, get into accidents, if they really think that there is nothing to be avoided in the world. In reality, there is quite a lot to be avoided in the astral as well as physical worlds, and very often these two are even entwined by the link of magnetism i.e. aether. For example, one's idea that one could safely deal with a vampire of even the pettiest level, a self-centered alcoholic or drug fiend, will most likely find out sooner or later that such a meeting will become a dismal curse. Once again, our most important Fifth Principle: "There is no one besides ourselves who could raise or transcend us. No outward saviour, religious or mundane, can truly develop, strengthen or redeem anyone else. Every positive change must come from man himself, must happen within, and must pass through every aspect of him." We cannot, we don't even have the karmic right to absolve beings who do not try to redeem themselves. But they, on the other hand, have no such inhibitions towards us, and beings who can be either flesh or astral substance will try to make us like themselves are, and/or feed on us, and/or destroy us because of "natural" envy and hatred that these beings have towards the path of remanation. It is quite mechanical and nothing personal, even when they themselves might see it as such.

But after really taking this in, one can naturally do many things with a met vampire, however physical or spiritual it is. There are all kinds of karmic mirrors in our encounters, even though they can be much more nuanced than the simple "like meets like." The more common way is the les extrêmes se touchent, where too unbridled aspect in oneself will form its mirror opposite outside oneself. (The Jungian enantiodromia in a projected form.) Definitely we can be benefitted, one way or the other, from all meetings, but surprisingly often the meeting of even of the loving kind demands an actual struggle and eventual strictness of establishing borders.

All this belongs to the path of equilibrium, which is the path of the Star of Azazel. But I have met some rare individuals who have been able to walk the path of shakta also, really taking into oneself everything and, so to say, eat those handfuls of glass. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone (most of all because it tends to harm not only the devotee but also the other people around them, like you Aperiemus already mentioned), but then again, I would recommend Satanism too only for a very few people.

There are no neat boxes here. There can (and often should!) be questioning whether one is actually an expert on a field one boasts understanding, and answers to such questionings can – most of all in occultism – receive only very individually convincing answers. I am grateful that so many Star of Azazel members deeply doubt my own expertise in these matters, for so it should be: only idiotism would spring if credulity would take the place of careful consideration in such occult topics, as we see from so many pseudoesoterical groups. Please, doubt. But, if you will, consider: could there be just a tiny possibility that through by some rare means there could be at least partial truth in these weird little unboxings? "Where does this person's understanding of this matter stem?" should be an actual question, rather than taking for granted that it must come from swallowing whole this or that book, orthodoxy, or neurotic habit.
Faust: "Lo contempla. / Ei muove in tortuosa spire / e s'avvicina lento alla nostra volta. / Oh! se non erro, / orme di foco imprime al suol!"
Istar
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Re: Elementals, Demons, Hungry Ghosts and Ancestral Spirits

Post by Istar »

I've had a few vampiric experiences with spirits, but I can't say for sure what they were about. Some vampiristic experiences can be connected to one's own, inner shadow sides, and others to more external factors. Even if the experience of absorbing energy seems to be caused by an external spirit, in reality it may be a shadow, a forbidden part of one's own self. Such a hidden part of the personality can appear as an attacking, outside force due to morally/ethically strict views.

Sometimes I've had vampiric experiences related to dreams, where the energetic attack has continued after waking up from the dream. The primary course of action for many is certainly to try to drive the intruder away by aggressive means. However, if it is a shadow of one's own self, it cannot be driven away, but it should merge back into one's own self. With the help of a loving and accepting attitude, it is possible to connect the shadow side back to oneself. Even if it is a vampiric, external spirit, in my opinion the best option is to approach it in an accepting and loving way, however, setting clear boundaries. It is challenging to approach a threatening situation neutrally, let alone lovingly. I find it impossible to ignore such experiences.
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